Curse

FrogDevourer · Mar 04, 2005, 10:49 AM // 10:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

People are running bots *right now*.

Really ? Damn. I was naive enough to believe GW would be safer than other games.

Are they basic macro tools (enter quest, click here and there, use skill 1, then 2, then attack, then repeat) or complex bots like meph/pindle runners with packet analysis ? I've always been both impressed and annoyed by the latter for they can make the botter very rich with no risk.

Who has developped such bots ? Alpha players ? Any feedback from ANet about this subject ? I really hope their counter-blast will be more drastic than Blizzard's.

Ellestar · Mar 04, 2005, 12:25 PM // 12:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Right, basically the worst of both worlds - though that has interesting implications for weapon switching in general that I'm not entirely comfortable with - say, switching between different +12 foci for different mods results in a loss of 12 energy.

There is no practical reason not to use item sets to change equipment during a fight. That's why i said "change items so you'll get lower max energy" - i talked about a difference in +Max Energy bonus between item sets, so to avoid a situation you explained.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Yeah, it's only like one spawns every ten thousand game hours or so. They're so common that alpha testers are running bots trying to get decent items in reasonable timeframes. Not a problem. At all.
--
Only the passage of time changes the equality, and judging from what alphas are saying the passage of a month doesn't reduce scarcity to acceptable PvP levels.

In other words, it's impossible to compete for a top places in clan ladder without a use of a farmbots. Now, that is a problem. I already heard that alphas use bots, but i thought that some additional money or crafting materials will not really impact PvP (because they can be easily obtained in enough quantities anyway). But now with rares it's entirely another matter.
A situation when almost noone have uber rares is semi-ok and isn't a big problem in itself. In most cases, it will be inefficient to farm uber rares because it's more efficient just to play in a ladder when it's possible. With the same time spent there will be a better ladder score, and a team will be more experienced so it will be actually more powerful than a team that will spend time to farm uber-rares (at least short-term, and in a long-term veteran competitive players will eventually get them anyway). So it's bad but not critical.

But bots will give just a plain advantage directly reflected in a ladder score. That is definately one of the things that can stagger a belief that a guild ladder properly reflects skill with all accompanying problems that will follow. I hope that GW devs understand that this is one of the biggest problems they have if they still want to make a competitive PvP game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrogDevourer

A lot of players are looking for this kind of grind.

If they'll make so rares can't be used in PvP, then it will be fine. In most cases farmers aren't really interested in PvP so they will not be significantly disappointed that they can't use rares in PvP (at least, it's better than no rares at all).

Then PvP weapons will use an uprades system mechanic as it was before (the difference was already mentioned here so no need to repeat it again).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

However, add a Strength based, +1 Life Siphon shield, and suddenly this character can shift into a 11 Blood / 10 Weapon / 10 Strength setup - 12 Life Siphon/12 Weapon/11 Strength overall. The rather innocuous +1 to Blood when using Life Siphon modifier is effectively +2 to Strength on this build. I don't think I have to explain why +2 to an attribute at no cost is absurdly good.

The problem, of course, is finding that shield, which is admittedly going to be a colossal task. But the build almost depends upon it for functionality.

It woks ok in Shadowbane, for some builds discipline runes work that way. Same with Magic:the Gathering etc. As long as these builds aren't overpowered even with these items, it generally means that this build will be rare. Probably it's even better becasue it's more fun to make them for some players and it adds diversity.

Greentongue · Mar 04, 2005, 01:12 PM // 13:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pharalon

I'd like to see all weapon mods available via upgrades components, with the components salavaged from items that spawn with those mods.

This way, to get the weapon you're after, you'll only need to find a good damage base item, then trade or salavage the mod components you want for it. It'll save players a lot of frustration.

[COLOR=Green]I believe we have a winning idea here.[/COLOR]

Dragonne · Mar 04, 2005, 06:07 PM // 18:07

The biggest issue presented so far seems to be more about availability than existance of the extremely high end mods/attributes. This reminds me of a post I made a few weeks ago where I spoke about the two types of players that will develop in GW the way the economy is, the 'haves' and the 'have-nots'. Anyway, why are Rares capable of so much more than normal items? That's a simple answer, the base mods. Only rares seem to have mods that are intrinsic to the base weapon and not available to the components.

I think that's the key here. Remove rares, give normal weapons the ability to have some intrinsic mods (the 'new rare' if you like, but without any other components, just the base weapon), and make all mods available through upgrade components. Also, why not make them simply infrequent instead of rare? If we saw at least one 'rare' drop in every mission, then we'd be on to something...

Anyway with a system similar to this, the path to those items that benefit any specific build can be either through farming OR trade. People will trade in base items and upgrade components to get the mix they need instead of farm-botting them, or some will go out and farm anyway because that's what they enjoy. With all the components available to most players and not restricted to the extremely wealthy or farm-botters, there should be a balance of power across all players, reducing the effect of items on battle outcome because everyone will have what they need with a little looking around.

Let me just say this. I don't like bots. I've been against exploiting a game using a bot for any reason for as long as they've existed. Though, in the long run, if GW manages to only have a bunch of farm bots running around, I much prefer that than a bunch of PvP pwnage bots. I got sick and tired of that crap in FPS games, and I hope ANet can keep them from popping up in GW.

cce · Mar 04, 2005, 07:07 PM // 19:07

Frankly, I think bots are a good thing - provided they are clearly marked as such. People will create them, why not just make it up-front and legal?

Examples:
- you might want to 'hire' a bot instead of a henchmen, someone's
AI might be quite good
- bots fix broken problems with 'rare' items, ie, they become
pawn bots... nothing like something like this to fix the economy
- competition between bots can be used for developing new 'AI'
for wandering monsters and such, ie, bot developers should
be submitting their bots (which can run in a jail)

In short, bots are unavoidable. Programmers love making them, beacuse they are challenging. Arena Net should welcome and regulate bots, not
ban them.

Loviatar · Mar 04, 2005, 08:09 PM // 20:09

i am sure that they did not simply scream *[COLOR=Red]ITS A BOT[/COLOR]* and hystarically ban them

they must have given it thought before making a decision and i hope they will be able to enforce the rules of their game

i do not wish to compete with a bot because than it becomes a bot battle and every goodie a bot gets is one less chance for a PLAYER

EDIT

i hope they manage to stop bots cold

Shrapnel_Magnet · Mar 04, 2005, 08:17 PM // 20:17

Yeah, in all seriousness, I am strongly against bots... I mean, I hope any reputable/respectable guild would feel the same way.

I don't really have an arguement against them, I just really don't like the idea. I think I was better off not knowing of/ignoring their existence.

It's really, if you break down, just plain old cheating.

Cheat: To violate rules deliberately, as in a game. (Maybe it's not in the rules to not use bots, but I think it should be)

I dunno, call me old fashioned but I'd rather have everyone playing the game themselves and not having some automated program do it for them.

Ensign · Mar 05, 2005, 03:15 AM // 03:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ellestar

There is no practical reason not to use item sets to change equipment during a fight.

Where we differ is whether or not there should be reasons not to use item sets. I don't see a need, and casters should be able to switch between various wands, staves, shields, and foci as needed. This is virtually identical to warriors switching between swords and shields, or a ranger switching bows. I see this as just another layer of strategy in the game.

I think that a Warrior switching to a focus to cast a high energy spell is a perfectly reasonable strategic option, and while I can understand why you want that removed I just can't agree with it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ellestar

but i thought that some additional money or crafting materials will not really impact PvP (because they can be easily obtained in enough quantities anyway). But now with rares it's entirely another matter.

That's really the crux of the problem - money, crafting materials, and the like are all relatively common and an organized guild should not have any issues getting those together to make their builds. On the other hand, good rares are nigh impossible to find, hard enough to acquire that people don't even know what's out there let alone what of it is abusive.

The problem with pharmbots isn't just that they get rares - they get the materials and gold, and lots of them. Those just get dumped into the economy, priced to move - crippling the parts of the economy that most players participate in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragonne

The biggest issue presented so far seems to be more about availability than existance of the extremely high end mods/attributes.

Yeah, that's pretty much the issue - having lots of unique modifiers is a benefit to the game. Making the inaccessable is not.

I don't even think the problem is with finding a mod you want, but the fact that you have to find the exact combination you want. If you're looking for a good rare focus, you aren't just looking for +12 energy - you want +12 energy and *two* good modifiers, each of which spawns individually. If you want a good sword, you don't just want the intrinsic rare mod - you want a weapon with the right upgrade parts, and since most rares spawn with upgrades already in place weapons are really just 3 mod items.

The solution to this is fairly straightforward:

1) No more than one modifier per weapon. Finding a weapon with the right mod takes N time. Finding a weapon with the right two mods takes N^2 time. This change not only makes it easier for people to find what they want, but lowers the difference between haves and have nots as well.

2) Rares need to spawn with open upgrade slots - normal weapons need to spawn with upgrade components. Right now, the best weapons you can find already have their upgrades filled from the beginning the vast majority of the time, making upgrade components more of a sick joke. Make sure that when a player finds a rare sword, it isn't junked up by a charrslaying pommel or something equally ridiculous.

Alternatively, let people replace the upgrade parts in an item - spawn a sword of charrslaying, but let people put a new pommel on it, destroying the old upgrade in the process.

Basically put the emphesis on building up the right item, not getting lucky and finding what you need.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cce

Frankly, I think bots are a good thing - provided they are clearly marked as such. People will create them, why not just make it up-front and legal?

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with a bot, but that they can have effects on a game world that can be clearly detrimental. Pharmbots flood the economy making it impossible for those without bots to trade - PvP bots can ruin the Tombs by destroying human competition with inhuman reflexes and coordination. Neither of these are particularly desirable goals, but I can guarantee you that they'll be the two most popular goals for people who write bots.

If bots can be allowed in the game in a way that doesn't adversely affect the game or the players in it, then sure, allow them. But as long as they detract from the gaming experience of actual human players, they're better off banned.

Peace,
-CxE

Bobangry · Mar 05, 2005, 04:39 AM // 04:39

The way I see the farmbot issue is that either Anet has to embrace them and give everyone one, not likely (or a good solution). Or they need to outright ban players accounts for using them.

They can't beat around the bush with this issue or the economy will be ruined fast. The last thing Guild Wars needs is to become another Diablo 2 with farm bots, spam bots, and even more scary like Ensign pointed out, PvP bots. What would be Anets stance on victories in GvG when using bots? What about just one bot? I hope they have a plan for these situations.

It's a shame that items are playing such a big role in Guild Wars, but I suppose bots would find their way into the game anyway.

EDIT: Cleocatra:

That's a very ideal solution yes, but more unlikely then Anet supporting bots at this point I'd say. (ok maybe that's a slight exaggeration

)

Maybe both would be best. Decrease the rarity and importance of good items while also banning the botters because I imagine that simple bots (enter, farm, leave) only lead to more complex ones (PvP bots). However, I do like the fact that some items can work better with certain strategies. They should not be overpowered compared to someone without the best items.

I'm all for the human challenge but the last thing I want to face is a bot the equivalent of a Dark Sim from Perfect Dark...those were scary. (they cheated)

Cleocatra · Mar 05, 2005, 04:53 AM // 04:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobangry

The way I see the farmbot issue is that either Anet has to embrace them and give everyone one, not likely (or a good solution). Or they need to outright ban players accounts for using them.

Or they need to reduce the rarity of good items and reduce the importance of items in PvP so botting and ebay won't be worth it in the first place.

Fool · Jun 30, 2005, 01:44 AM // 01:44

This might be outta of the topic, but I am just wondering has anyone actually found a weapon with increased attack speed? And if you do still have it, do you mind post a picture of it just for our reference, please? Becasuse I remember finding a fire wand with +10% attack speed back then, but the dmg was too low so I sold it to npc... Ever since then I have not found a single weapon with that +10% attack speed mod anymore. Now that I realized how good it is...